I have been travelling lots recently, and keep coming across Bibles in my hotel room. I assume that they are there to help some people in times of need. The idea of offering help is obviously sound, but I do worry that perhaps there is a more effective and inclusive way of doing it…..so, what book would you like to see in every hotel room in the world? How do you react to the Bible in hotel rooms? Would you keep the Bible or replace it with something else?
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October 28, 2009 at 6:56 am |
I’d like to replace every Bible with The God Delusion, or at least leave it next to the Bible. Really any of the so-called “New Atheist” books. Also The Demon-Haunted World and Flim Flam would be great additions.
October 28, 2009 at 2:22 pm
They’d probably be subject to vandalism, I bet.
~Dan
November 20, 2009 at 1:20 am
haha u make me laugh. u guys just need to shutup cuz u atheists disgust me. why dont you just leave all ur comments to urself. why cant we all just get along and try to teach eachother our beliefs nicer but now we cant. if u dont stop sining u will go to HELL!! do u really want to end up when ur dead in fire and burn FOREVER, u will soon see the face of god and he will say depart from me i never knew you. then how will u feel? will u think “ohhh so this god that those crazy christians were talking about was true.” then ull feel how much it hurts and burns. we christtians try to save you from hell but u dont believe us. u can comment as much as you want to but ull NEVER schange my mind about god and jesus. i love them and they love me. they also love u but when u see him on your judgement day he will send u to hell if you dont repent. he will still love you but god can not be with sinners. REPENT!!! would u rather b up in heaven where everything is perfect, peaceful, and glorious or in hell where ull burn in the firery pits of hell. ummm comment pleassee. thanks
REPENT!!
November 23, 2009 at 8:17 am
I realise that in any large population there will be a few out there in need of guidance but really, Hailey, your language is appalling – there is only one ‘T’ in ‘Christian’ and ‘God’ should be dignified with a capital ‘G.’ I hope you understand the seriousness of insulting one of the world’s most popular languages, for which sin there is condign and summary punishment. It’s Year Five Remedials for you, my friend! And there you will remain until you have repented of your ungrammatical ways.
October 28, 2009 at 7:41 am |
The Gideon’s can come in handy for weighting the autopay sensors in the mini bar though…
October 28, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Wow, wish I’d thought of that.
October 28, 2009 at 7:41 am |
The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy. If it existed
Even a imaginary book is better than a religious text. Actually, just the story will work better.
October 28, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Yes!
October 29, 2009 at 5:21 am
H2G2! That’s what I was going to say!
As to how I react, I roll my eyes and think, “Oh, goody. The Gideons have been here.”
October 28, 2009 at 7:42 am |
The Little Book Of Calm should do the same job!
October 30, 2009 at 3:27 am
I can’t think of the Little Book of Calm without thinking about Black Books. I now have to go watch Black Books.
October 28, 2009 at 7:43 am |
I just roll my eyes at the Bible in the drawer. I’d prefer nothing be there. I don’t see why a religion has to be promoted in hotel rooms. All I want to see in a hotel room is the room service information and maybe a bit of information about the surrounding area.
November 20, 2009 at 1:24 am
because if u read it and u go driving maybe and have an accident then they want to make sure u have read th word of god if u die . maybe it would teach u guys a leason.
March 9, 2011 at 7:19 am
Open mindedness is needed here and by the way you spell u like this you p.s if you havent noticed the car was invented using science NOT GOD.
October 28, 2009 at 7:43 am |
Well, anything by Dan Brown would be more useful for the average hotel patron.
October 28, 2009 at 7:43 am |
A book with a title like “What to do when your roommate is on fire” would be more useful …
October 29, 2009 at 10:09 am
I concurr.
October 28, 2009 at 7:51 am |
Ever since I saw it done once years ago, I like to sign the bibles in hotel rooms I stay in: “Best wishes, God”
October 28, 2009 at 8:06 am
Or write the line “All characters herein are fictitious. Any resesmblance to real people is purely coincidental” (courtesy of Ref Dwarf)
October 28, 2009 at 8:56 am
Or write the warning that comes before every south park episode
October 28, 2009 at 1:08 pm
‘All characters herein are fictitious. Any resesmblance to real people is purely coincidental’
Now that would be a gross misrepresentation. Like it or not, the Bible is full of externally verifiable facts and people.
October 28, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Emmmm….I think it was meant as a joke??
October 29, 2009 at 2:30 am
It has fewer externally verifiable “facts” than you’d think. King Harod never ordered an execution of children. There is no evidence Jesus actually existed beyond it being a relatively common name in the region at the time. There is no evidence of an exodus of Jews from Egypt and where the Jews were supposed to have settled was actually still part of they Egyptian empire at the time. I won’t even start on the disagreements about how it’s translated.
The Bible is showing up in fewer and fewer hotel room as it is. Gideon also distributes the Torah and Koran in areas where those are the predominant religions.
January 4, 2010 at 12:52 pm
The Red Dwarf episode Anonymous mentioned contained a “news report” claiming that the first page of the Bible had been found. It read “Dear Penny, All characters herein are fictitious. Any resemblance to real people is purely coincidental…”. It was meant as a joke as it is just too ridiculous to be true, as if anyone would write a letter that long!
October 28, 2009 at 7:54 am |
OK I’ll bite. 59 seconds?
October 29, 2009 at 5:27 am
Win!
October 29, 2009 at 2:29 pm
I don’t get it.
October 28, 2009 at 8:04 am |
More importantly, perhaps, is what should replace the Bible for swearing in courtrooms…
Yes, put a copy of TGD in each hotel room, but leave the Bible in there as well: it’s the best advert against Christianity.
October 28, 2009 at 8:10 am |
I think hotels should have a different book in each room, representing lots of different genres and authors – rather than having the same work of fiction in all of them.
October 28, 2009 at 8:10 am |
I once stayed at the Hilton in Niagara Falls, where the book in the bedside table wasn’t a Bible, but “Be My Guest” by Conrad Hilton.
I was then very disappointed to find a Bible in the Hilton Newcastle.
October 28, 2009 at 8:13 am |
The most obvious choice to replace it would be The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy: Don’t Panic is the best advice you ever need when travelling.
October 28, 2009 at 8:14 am |
My suggestion?
101 uses for a dead cat.
October 28, 2009 at 8:24 am |
Perhaps DVD of Religulous…
October 29, 2009 at 5:28 am
Okay, I’m changing my vote. Or rather, adding this to my previous vote of H2G2.
October 28, 2009 at 8:28 am |
Quirkology by Richard Wiseman. Kerrrr-ching!
October 28, 2009 at 8:32 am |
‘Join Me’ by Danny Wallace.
October 28, 2009 at 8:33 am |
The Kama-Sutra…
November 6, 2009 at 3:06 pm
…and a box of tissues.
October 28, 2009 at 8:44 am |
A big joke book.
October 28, 2009 at 10:50 pm
…and a box of tissues…
October 28, 2009 at 8:46 am |
Would you keep Smallpox or replace it with something else?
October 28, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Win!
October 28, 2009 at 8:48 am |
Carl Sagan’s Demon-Haunted World. Mind you, Penn and Teller would have to come up with a different card trick for that.
October 28, 2009 at 8:57 am |
Why have a book at all? It’s quite an odd concept but we’re so used to it. Why not offer the body of christ when you board a train as well?
October 28, 2009 at 8:57 am |
Sorry, Richard, but I don’t think the Gideons can been seen to be offering help. They are just trying to indoctrinate people like all religious fanatics.
October 28, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Yes , they chain you to the book upon check in, and don’t switch the lights off so you must read it, must read it, must read it…
October 28, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Anonymous that’s ridiculous. They are trying their hardest to get you to read the book within the bounds of the law. Luckily they’re still not above it yet.
November 3, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Jeremy, are you serious? It’s there, read it or don’t read it, it’s up to you. It’s like anything else in the room, e.g. TV, shower, minibar, phone. They’re all there, no one has to use them though.
As suggested by Richard, it’s there for people in a time of crisis, as far as I can tell, so TGD, especially, is hardly the best choice! If I were to replace it, I’d put in a free call-card so you can call the Samaritans or something. Personally, I go for chocolate, fags, crying and walking it off in times of despair.
October 28, 2009 at 9:03 am |
Foygl is close.
It should be something less culturally biased than the bible, but also capable of being read meaningfully from short isolated passages.
If there were a hotel room edition of 59 seconds with only the chapter summaries in it, that would be cool.
Of course then it would need a lot more content. Richard should set up a science-based self help wiki to collect material.
Alternatively an anthology of short stories would work, or Finnegans Wake, (all pages being equally incomprehensible).
October 28, 2009 at 9:13 am |
This is just another insidious meme. These no rhyme or reason to it. It’s just like having the end of your toilet roll folded into a triangle.
October 28, 2009 at 10:10 am
The toilet roll folding shows that your bathroom has been tended to.
Its an outward sign (not the only one) that you have been ‘cared for’ as a guest. If there’s no rhyme or reason, why describe it as insidious?
October 28, 2009 at 9:15 am |
Put à big guestbook in there, I’d love to read who slept in that room before me!
Plus people could make silly drawings and such
!
October 28, 2009 at 10:11 am
Nice idea
October 29, 2009 at 11:29 am
I like it!
October 30, 2009 at 10:46 am
Best suggestion so far.
November 10, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Now THAT is a great idea!
October 28, 2009 at 9:31 am |
I though TGD at first; but I’m actually with Colm now – something funny that will make you laugh.
October 28, 2009 at 9:32 am |
When I say I’m with Colm, I don’t mean physically, and certainly not in the biblical sense
October 28, 2009 at 9:38 am |
I love finding the bible. They usually lack an advisory label so I apply one
http://seantheblogonaut.com/2009/04/blogonaut-on-tour-day-1/
October 28, 2009 at 9:40 am |
Do you really worry about that Richard? You’ve always struck me as rather more robust than that.
Different books are let in different hotels and countries already. Many carry the Teachings of Buddha, perhaps a nontheistic teaching would be more to your taste.
Personally I am heartened that organisations are willing to share their beliefs with me at a time when I tend to be more contemplative, at the beginning and end of each day. I welcome any of the works of the great religions as long as I can read them. Spending a little time with them usually gives me heart that there’s a common appreciation of goodness across cultures and belief systems. For sure there are differences too, but they are not what speak to me during times of meditation and restful reflection. Bible, Koran, Buddhist texts, Nitnem/Japji, I-Ching. All have beautiful translations which inspire me. Personally I also think Khalil Ghibran’s ‘The Prophet’ is nicely accessible and uplifting,.
Nonaligned books work fine too, such as the works of Richard Bach or Antoine de Saint Exupery.
Dawkins at bedtime? It really doesn’t do much for me. If I wanted a science writer I think I’d go with Carl Sagan. Stories of travel and voyages tend to be inspirational too, so maybe Darwin himself …
Accessible philosophy texts perhaps …
Any of the above seem to me to be rather more wholesome than the more pervasive ‘adult’ TV channels, cheap game shows and ‘USA Today’ depending on where you stay.
Loneliness is quite common. there’s something about the sharing of a supportive, uplifting text by unseen well wishers that I find heartening.
Maybe it’s a half full/half empty thing
October 29, 2009 at 7:54 am
I suppose that you would love to see the Book of Mormon in your Marriott guestroom, then, wouldn’t you?
October 28, 2009 at 9:53 am |
Folks should leave any of their Christmas ‘list’ books that they’ve received over the years e.g. Schotts
It’ll give them a whole new second life. During, which, they might actually get read from cover to cover, eventually.
They’re easy to read, largely inoffensive and useful for getting to sleep.
Unlike the Bible, however, they might be considered educational.
October 28, 2009 at 9:59 am
Are you really suggesting, as your words seem to say, that there is no possibility that the Bible might be considered educational? I guess you propose that as a personal position.
Book crossing is a nice idea, though I think some of us treasure the gifts people give us a bit more than is implied here.
October 28, 2009 at 9:58 am |
Personally, I don’t mind bibles in hotel rooms. I don’t read them, but if other people do and they don’t want to carry their own copy (it is quite a heavy book after all), that’s fine by me. I’m sure a lot of hotels have other religious books available on request.
My alternative would be anything by Alexander McCall Smith: His books make you feel warm and fuzzy, which is just what you need when you’re in a strange environment.
October 28, 2009 at 10:00 am |
the i-book ofcourse .. that way it will be whatever the guests wants it to be. Can it get more effective and servicing than that?
The kamasutra is nice too ofcourse, but a bit depressing to single guests perhaps (although .. the hallway might become crowded ..).
October 28, 2009 at 10:00 am |
recently i stayed in a berlin hotel which is famous for its former use by Kgb agents and Russian spies, so i was told before entering the room. When in the room, i felt like squeezed in a match/box, only 1 window on the 11th floor in a 38/floor high Hotel…i immediately got associations with 9/11 somehow…..
When it was time to sleep i entered the bed and it truly did NOT help to find a Bible next to my pillow!…it felt more like… ‘this might be my last night’…horrific!!
so happy that i was soooo tired and fell asleep pretty soon.
Time to drop the Bible and in with a Kindle or something…on chains ofcourse, lol
October 28, 2009 at 10:27 am |
I always check to see whether someone’s left $20 inside it.
November 10, 2009 at 3:24 pm
People do that?? I am checking from now on!
October 28, 2009 at 10:32 am |
Actually I love finding a Bible in every hotel room. I’m not religious but there’s something comforting about the regularity of it. Enter hotel room… find lights… find bathroom… find TV remote… find Gideon Bible. Good must be a real hotel. Now off to dinner…
Lj.
October 29, 2009 at 12:44 am
hear hear
October 28, 2009 at 10:34 am |
The Bible is, like it or not, one of the foundation stones of our culture. It’s open to many different uses and interpretations. The idea that familiarity with it isn’t educational is philistinism. I suppose while we’re at it we should scrub off the Sistine Chapel ceiling and stick a big photo of a DNA molecule up there instead.
TGD, by contrast, is proselytising for a very specific political position. It would be downright weird if a hotel decided to stick a copy of *that* in every bedside cabinet.
I should point out I’m not religious in any way, just easily annoyed by the current tendency for atheists to take this over-excited all-or-nothing attitude to everything.
Oh, my suggestion? Schopenhauer’s “Studies on Pessimism”, natch.
October 28, 2009 at 2:27 pm
You honestly think people were serious about that suggestion?
October 29, 2009 at 8:31 am
Oh, perhaps I had a sense of humour failure. Is everyone here just kidding?
October 28, 2009 at 10:51 am |
There are seven words in every Gideon’s Bible that can’t be found in any other bible. If you repeat those seven words to yourself while grasping the doorknob to your room, the door will open to any hotel room in the world. Of course, if you want to control where you’re going, you’ll need to know the Gideon’s Key – one more inserted word, unique to each copy, which acts as an index for each room.
October 28, 2009 at 11:00 am |
Has to be Carl Sagan’s Demon-Haunted World a seminal book on reason in a psuedoscientific and supersticious based world.
I have found that the last few hotels I have stayed in didn’t have any Bibles in them at all. I only noticed because I wanted to write something in them along the lines of the suggestions above.
October 28, 2009 at 11:06 am |
Certainly not a big deal to me. Although it does somewhat lessen my opinion of hotel management when I they are (actively or passively) promote one sectarian view over others.
@Helveticat: Seriously? TGD promoting a political position? Have you read the thing? What political position do you find in it?
It’s a well-argued and coherent presentation of an increasingly-common perspective toward religion. As such, it is much more readable and accessible than the Christian Bible. And, given its currency in our cultural discourse, your suggestion that the Bible is more relevant than TGD is somewhat rich. (Also, in case you haven’t read it, note that Dawkins acknowledges – even celebrates – the literary value of the KJV translation.)
I’d put a generous supply of blank notepaper and pens in the drawers. (Many do so already.)
October 28, 2009 at 11:20 am |
Increasingly common perhaps, but, as I guess you would agree, the idea with the biggest number of believers (or even the fastest growing community of belief) doesn’t guarantee correctness, truth or comfort in the ideas expressed.
Which text is more readable, maybe GTD is more readable to a section of the scientific or academic community – perhaps even a majority of them. I suspect that the community which finds the Bible more accessible still outnumbers the scientific intellectual community though.
TGD is a voice in a conversation of ideas, and a currently a strong one. Bedtime reading though? Not for most people, I suggest.
Perhaps, on the way to selecting ‘The Most Appropriate Book’ we should more clearly think about the purpose that a book in a hotel room is to fulfil.
October 28, 2009 at 11:24 am |
How about “The Velveteen Rabbit”. Perfect bedtime reading.
October 28, 2009 at 11:31 am |
How would this community want to handle the increasing phenomenon of hotel rooms indicating the direction of Mecca. (Often in rooms which also contain a Gideon bible). Any problems there? Seems to me that we could regard the book and the pointers simply as support tools for visitors, like toothbrush, shampoo and spare blanket. Just as Richard may need less shampoo than some other folks, some people won’t feel the need to use the Bible or the Mecca arrow.
Seeing such signs of well intentioned outreach as ‘insidious’ etc really does seem perverse.
October 28, 2009 at 11:48 am
I have no problem with the indication of the nearest place to play Bingo.
Every hotel room I have been in has had a Invisible Pink Unicorn in the bathroom…
October 28, 2009 at 11:37 am |
Hunter S. Thompson, in the introduction to one of his books (I forget which one but I think it may have been Generation of Swine), thanks the Gideon folk for leaving bibles in the hotel rooms where he was often working, against a tight deadline, to write articles that would capture the behavior of the politicians he was covering. He says that there is nothing like the Old Testament when you need a quote about such beastly things.
I’m an atheist but I’m also deeply interested in language. Whether you like it or not most of our languages are full of phrases, ideas, and metaphors from the Bible. Try reading it with this in mind and you will get lots of “oh that’s where that comes from” moments. Its very rewarding in that way. Also has some cracking stories.
This is an interesting thread for me because it does show that atheists (and I’ve been all my life) can have an unfortunate tendency to define themselves in relation to the thing they are against. If we can only come up with anti-theist texts, comedy books and self-help manuals to replace the Bible then we open ourselves to the criticism that we are “just being negative” and have very little useful philosophy of our own.
I agree that “the idea of offering help is obviously sound” because hotels can be miserable places but, while I don’t have any problem with self-help manuals like 59 Seconds, is popular psychology really the best we can offer?
I like your comments Observer. Hotel rooms may lend themselves to contemplation and some of the ones I’ve stayed in were spartan monk’s cells. I enjoyed The Philosopher and the Monk, that might suit me. But its very hard to think of something with broad appeal.
Actually, thinking further perhaps the best book would be an exciting guide to the local area to help people get out of the hotel room as quickly as possible.
October 28, 2009 at 1:19 pm
I’ve recently come across a couple of books by Nigel Warburton, ‘Philosophy the Basics’ (Theme based) and ‘Philosophy the Classics’ (Philosopher based). Both lend themselves to being dipped into, with short, stand-alone chapters including propositions and counter arguments.
Personally I prefer something a little more spiritual for uplift, but I think these books are balanced and accessible introductions for people preferring to exercise mind rather than body or spirit before turning in.
October 28, 2009 at 11:59 am |
Just ditch the freaking bible…
October 28, 2009 at 12:14 pm |
I think it has a good intension. No other book can really be put there as most other books that offer hope etc can be disproved etc (ie. The secret). Unless, maybe you put a fiction book (which admitted it was fiction not fact lol) with unconscious metaphors in it or something, like the Alchemist…..
October 28, 2009 at 12:26 pm |
As an athiest, I don’t care what they put there. A bible, porn, does it really matter? If people take offence at a passive object, I think the problem lies with them. I find them quaint. I’ve travelled a fair bit, and have actually enjoyed reading about Budda etc in other countries.
October 28, 2009 at 1:15 pm |
They should include the recently found missing first page, with the text:
“All characters and events are fictitious. Any resemblance to real-life is purely coincidental.”
October 28, 2009 at 1:28 pm
@ Oase
I wonder why you would do that. I’m not a historian but I thought that it was widely accepted that characters such as Jesus, Pontius Pilate and John the Baptist were historically authentic.
October 28, 2009 at 1:55 pm
@Observer
Maybe those characters are, but what about Adam, Eve and God him-/her-/itself? And what about the events being depicted in the bible?
More importantly, the word itself, how to go about in your life should certainly not been taken literally! Things have changed since the writing of the book. The moral in a generalized way is pretty descent, for instance the 10 commandments, but you could do that with a book about humanism or moral ethics.
October 28, 2009 at 2:08 pm
If your label for the book had said ‘It may be sensible to reflect on the extent to which 2000 year old teachings of loving God and loving your neighbour are applicable in the 21st century’ or even ‘Beware … some teachings in this book appear shockingly inappropriate and unacceptable in today’s society’ I wouldn’t have argued.
Too often at the moment, it seems to me, the atheocracy of the skeptic community reach for sweeping generalisations which, in themselves, exhibit no greater sensitivity to the truth than a religious zealot. At the same time as weakening their own arguments by laying themselves open to easy counterexamples it also alienates (maybe by deliberately) the community that I would have thought it would seek to persuade.
The quest for truth is a noble human ambition, I suspect we are more likely to home in on it if we work together rather than pull apart and throw rocks at each other.
October 28, 2009 at 2:32 pm
There’s actually no evidence that Jesus existed that doesn’t rely on Christians. There are no personal accounts of his existence and the non biblical accounts were stored in Christian buildings at a time when we *know* that it was common practice for people to add things into books that they thought were missing.
I’m not saying Jesus never existed, just that it’s a lot more debatable than many people think.
October 28, 2009 at 2:51 pm
@Jeremy
Thanks Jeremy. I’ll take that as ‘one (maybe) down and two to go’.
The intended thrust of my argument here was more about the dangers of generalisation in weakening arguments and polarising debate.
Oase’s claim was that all characters and events were fictitous …
I still think I’d be likley to win a bet that said I oculd find agreement between historians for the authenticity of at least one character or event in the Bible.
I assume Oase was limiting that to the Bible … if the intent was to say that LIFE might be a fiction, an illusion, like Plato’s Cave or The Matrix, I’d have to fall back and say ‘unprovable either way’ (unless/until someone pulls the plug or drags us out of the Cave …).
October 28, 2009 at 11:50 pm
@Observer My first comment was a attempt at making a joke. One i always liked because i find it amusing thinking about a book that potraits a story that many people see as the ‘truth’ and discovering this lost page. The same joke can be made about every other non-fiction book.
If i would have liked to discuss the topic of the holy bible and God’s word i would have choosen an other discussion platform. Maybe i should have made that clear. But because of the little argumentation and line of reasoning i gave, i thought that was clear form the start.
I fully agree with you that “we are more likely to home in on it if we work together rather than pull apart and throw rocks at each other.” I wouldn’t consider the joke “throwing a rock”. I am an agnost, so in principle open to all kinds of believe till otherwise proven. But the things done by people because of the so called literal meaning of the word frightens me sometimes and even can make me angry. I think that’s because most of all i am a humanist.
October 28, 2009 at 1:25 pm |
To my knowledge, it isn’t a “hotel” practice to leave Bibles, it is certain Christian organizations that make a practice of leaving them. I’d be interested to see other “offerings” as well, like translations of Qur’an or even just good novels.
January 4, 2010 at 12:42 pm
I too would like to see other religious texts alongside the Bible. While I do not believe in a deity, I still find religious texts interesting. However, when I stay in a Hotel, it is usually for one night, and I would not have the time to read more than a couple of pages… I also bring my own book.
My vote goes for paper and pens
October 28, 2009 at 1:27 pm |
I wonder why you would do that. I’m not a historian but I thought that it was widely accepted that characters such as Jesus, Pontius Pilate and John the Baptist were historically authentic.
October 28, 2009 at 1:43 pm |
Leave 2 bibles. That way I can interlace the pages when I get bored.
October 28, 2009 at 2:15 pm |
I like to take the Bible to reception as soon as I arrive. Either that or read a bit from it if I fancy a laugh and then take it down.
I’d leave Carl Sagan’s Contact in its place, were I endowed with more money than necessary for one human being.
October 28, 2009 at 2:29 pm |
Is this one of those trick questions where everyone gives in because of peer pressure? The Bible is a lovely book, full of inspiration and hope even if you aren’t a Christian. If you are of a Carl Sagan philosopy and we’re all just star-stuff, products of the cosmos, nothing you do or say matters any way, because you have no purpose only ‘approximate purpose’ according to other atheists. So why beat something you consider it dead horse. Many, many people benefit from having the Bible in their room. For the rest of you, leave the drawer shut.
October 28, 2009 at 2:33 pm
A lovely book, Liz? There are some good bits, for sure but things like this never really struck me as “lovely”
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
“As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.”
During wartimes or not, that horrendous morality.
October 28, 2009 at 2:49 pm
But there are plenty of books that many people benefit from reading. You may find the Bible lovely and inspiration, but that also can be said for many other books (including ones that don’t include swapping 200 foreskins for a king’s daughter, human sacrifices and demands that gay people be executed).
Your paraphrasing of Carl Sagen’s philosophy is ridiculous. I’ve read the bible, but I find it impossible to believe you’ve read his books and they led you to that conclusion.
Here is what Carl Sagen had to say about the world;
The question, if you try reading Richard’s post again, is whether the Bible is the most inclusive and effective book for helping people in hotels? Just because some people get some benefit from having a bible there, I’m sure you’d agree that many people get no benefit. Is there a book that would help more people or give them more useful advice than telling fig trees that if they don’t grow fruit out of season if Jesus commands them to then they’ll be cursed?
If all the bibles were replaced by the Tao Te Ching or a joke book, or a compilation of poetry, would this help less people or more people? It sounds like you already have an opinion on that, but it would be dogmatic and foolish to give a certain answer to that question without any evidence.
October 28, 2009 at 2:49 pm
I agree with Andrew AND Liz. There is a lot to be said for just NOT reading something that would offend (same goes for not watching TV programs and Films that might offend) and leaving it to people who enjoy it.
Yes the bible has positive messages that can inspire positive emotions in people BUT because the bible can also inspire hatred and divide people from their neighbours and sets up barriers against openess as well as excuses for intolerance, I would rather it not be there at all.
October 28, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Can I just ask about this “Philosophy” thing regarding Carl Sagan.
We are star stuff. It’s not philosophy. It’s science. Nuclear waste if you want to be less poetic but still scientific.
October 28, 2009 at 3:04 pm
“nothing you do or say matters any way, because you have no purpose only ‘approximate purpose’ according to other atheists”
That’s a very big leap to take Liz. Just because I don’t believe that actions I take will have any particular effect on me after I’m dead, doesn’t mean that my actions can’t have any effect on my own or other people’s happiness while I’m alive.
I personally believe that teaching patterns of critical thinking and consideration of evidence by encouraging people to read something like ‘The Demon Haunted World’ will have a greater benefit to people’s general well-being than encouraging them to believe that morality is something which only exists to avoid punishment in the afterlife.
I’d rather treat people like rational adults than scolded children.
Ok, in the grand scheme of things then perhaps it won’t make any difference, but for my personal well-being, in the here and now while I’m alive, I’d rather live in a rational world than a religious one.
October 28, 2009 at 4:04 pm
@ Andrew
A lovely book. Yes.
The holy book for the religion of the majority of the citizens of the country I grew up in. A book which has held that position for centuries.
An inspiration for much that is good that we see in the world today.
A book with (in the final analysis) the simple messages of ‘Love God, Love your neighbour, love your enemy.’
Even if you do not believe in God, you are left with (effectively) ‘Love each other’.
The stories of sacrifice and faith, reenacted by saints, heroes and heroines calls to the some of the highest human ideals.
I find it hard to conceive of a less divisive philosophy outside of the nondual philosophies such as Advaita Vedanta which can be far less easy to access.
To find the Christian philosophy divisive is akin to saying that free speech is divisive because we people are not permitted to speak out against free speech.
@Jeremy
As well as its
is there a book which gives more useful advice than the tale of the fig tree?… yes … the same book does. When we read a science text the aim is the clear transmission of fact, probably presenting evidence, possibly drawing a more or less tentative conclusion. When we read a spiritually charged text, or indeed pure fiction, we bring something of ourselves to the process while reading. I’m pretty sure that some are more proficient at engaging with metaphor and parable than others to take a message that applies to them at the time of reading. Different people will read a novel and find either a surface story, an intended allegory or, sometimes, an unintended allegory. I think the same is true for some of the great religious texts.
It may be that the world is ready for some kind of grand revelation … I don’t see TGD or even Cosmos as being it.
perhaps we should look at whether we can agree on what ‘inclusive’ means. Given that Christianity is the worlds largest (worldwide, in US and in UK) that it’s not unreasonable, if you are going to have any holy book in a hotel room, that the Bible should be it. I think around 70% of UK regard themselves as Christians. CIA factbook (2007) http://tinyurl.com/yrmnyw shows Christianity as the largest religion worldwide at around 33% and nonreligious community at around 12 per cent and Atheists at just under 2.5%. So if you want to include the most people … what would you choose if you were to choose a religious text?
Given that something over 80% of humanity describes themselves as religious, to not support that aspect of our being in our home from home would be surprising.
If we try for a more complex definition of inclusion, perhaps a product of numbers affects and the depth to which they were affected I don’t know. Personally I find books from many faiths enlightening (perhaps I start from a particularly dim point) and rarely feel excluded. I guess I have a tendency to look for agreement rather than difference in these matters. I don’t think I would find a scientific or atheist book filling the same space in my head and heart. I’d choose to read something like that at a different time.
A book of jokes is no more likely to make everyone laugh than a religious book is to make everyone pious, I think. I think there’s a real risk that in an effort to offend noone will simply result in blandness. I’m a qualified scientist, I know that most science writing is not regarded by the majority of my non scientific buddies to be accessible to non specialists.
What would I like to see in every hotel room in the world?
Assuming that the companionship and conversation of a sparkly or insightful personality is not available, I’d settle for a small bookshelf with a mixture of books I love, including the Bible. Nitnem, works of Richard Bach and Antoine de Saint-Exupery, I-Ching, some philosophy, a world prayers book, and a selection of books I hadn’t read before.
If I’m on business, I’d say ‘Yes Please’ to Internet. If on vacation, I’d prefer to decline and look out over a landscape mulling over whether the sunset and evening star were chance beauties or creative act of a deity.
October 28, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Beautiful, Liz? Not to me. And no comebacks.
I am a man, you see, and I’m guessing by your name that you are a woman. Therefore, I invoke my divine authority as a superior being (as granted by 1 Timothy 2:12) and end this argument.
October 28, 2009 at 4:34 pm
buahahaha @ Sean Ellis
October 28, 2009 at 2:46 pm |
I’d like to see this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nclemente/3450027774/
October 28, 2009 at 2:49 pm |
You can’t go wrong with the classics – offering your virgin daughters to be raped always seems quite bad morality to me:
19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
(19:4-5) “Bring them out unto us, that we may know them.”
19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
October 28, 2009 at 2:50 pm |
A dictionary.
October 28, 2009 at 2:52 pm |
I’m with the one that said the Big Book of Jokes and along side, a suicide prevention guide.
October 28, 2009 at 2:59 pm |
Liz – if you would like to supply a foolproof formula for knowing which hotel room drawer the bible is in, I will happily avoid it. Equally, if you would like to address the issue of hotels not allowing books from other faiths or none (it has been tried), then I would be interested to hear your comments.
As for the bible being a great book full of morals and wisdom, I could list a thousand other books which do a better job of that without invoking supernatural deities or condoning murder. That is really not a sensible argument when the objective of the Gideon society is evangelism, specifically for the Christian faith.
They state that “The Bible, God’s Holy Word, has the answer to every situation in life. It contains a wealth of inspiration, comfort and practical guidance for day-to-day living within its pages if we know where to look.”.
I fundamentally disagree with that statement on every level. If the objective is to help people, then perhaps a copy of 59 Seconds would be more appropriate to the 21st Century than a relic written by men in tents. I would like to know which parts of the bible supply hope and inspiration for people who don’t believe in rewards from God and eternal life in heaven. If you’re talking about morality for day to day living, then you need to answer this question which I have stolen from Hitchens: Name for me a moral action or a moral statement ever made or committed or uttered by a believer, that a non-believer couldn’t have made.
Finally, I think you are confusing atheism with existentialism. All of the atheists I know have both purpose and the knowledge that their actions and words matter a great deal.
October 28, 2009 at 5:23 pm
@Tracy
I think a couple of folks (including myself) have noted that other faith groups are served by hotels and some have commented on non-faith books being available.
I don’t understand your desire to know where the Bible is so that you can avoid it. How is that different from finding a Bible and simply leaving it closed? Wouldn’t a sign saying where a Bible was located logically give you as much concern as finding the book which contained the words you don’t want to read?
’59 seconds’ or a book which has underpinned a major religion for around 2000 years? I’ve read both. ‘The Sermon on The Mount’ or ‘Procrastination and the Zeigarnik Effect’, sorry Richard – no contest. A hotel room with time on one’s hands is a rare opportunity for many these days. To have the tool (book) to reconnect with traditions and wisdom of generations at that time can be, (dare I say it?) a blessing. Rather more edifying, in my opinion, than a rerun of Family Guy on TV with a side order of overpriced beer and peanuts.
I didn’t notice anyone saying the Bible was FULL of great morals and wisom. If I said it, I didn’t mean to. there are stories which look plain whacky to my 21st century eyes.
But … there are pearls of wisdom and inspiration that shine out and the overall story of redemption ‘fills’ the book in a different way.
I do think your comment regarding a thousand books doing it better than the Bible would have been stronger if you had listed some examples. It’s left sounding like rhetoric.
Of course, just because you (or I) disgaree about a proposition, even ‘fundamentally’ (and I’m no fundamentalist) doesn’t mean that we are correct.
It does seem to me that culturally our tendency to stick with a work to tease out its messages is eroding. I think we are losing something valuable as that happens. Rereading, reading between the lines, reading at different levels … some books warrant this, others simply convey facts and opinions. We used to be able to tell the difference and value the works appropriately, I’m not sure we are so good at that now, at being willing to work with something over a long period to come to know it and appreciate it.
Your style of argument then becomes a bit tricky.
First you effectively say (and I don’t think this is an unfair paraphrase)
“I would like to know which words supply hope and inspiration for people who don’t believe them.” I’m sure there’s a word for this kind of fallacious argument, I just don’t know what it is.
You then go on to say ‘If we are talking about morality …’ certainly there are different schools of ethics. Some regard that our ethics/morals are divinely given we are good either because that’s the way God made us or
because that’s the way God asks/commands us to be. I guess you have it there then. There’s a statement about morals that an atheist wouldn’t be able to make truthfully. ie “My morals/ethics are divinely inspired”. Of course when it comes to moral or ethical actions, the actions could be guided by what are believed to be divinely inspired rules, or by consideration of the consequences or by rolling a dice (without even wondering about whether there is a God who plays dice). It’s something that we can’t really resolve I think.
I just wish atheists would engage with those they disagree with more (AND VICE-VERSA). Too often the words that catch the eye in debates between the two sides are cheap shots and insults which detract from the shared goal of undertanding the truth. I think the danger is that some elements of both sides sometimes use language that implies that they believe that they have already achieved the truth and they then sit back and disparage the other side with words that just cloud the central issues, in the same way that I would argue that the furore over the use of the word ‘Bogus’ has somewhat eclipsed valid critical discussion between sceptical scientists and BCA in recent months. If atheists did not know that words mattered before that, I agree that they must surely know now. I think philosophers have a great deal to offer in this arena as many of the arguments have been rehearsed for centuries.
October 28, 2009 at 3:05 pm |
In my part of the world, Japan, I also receive in hotel the teaching of Bouddha, just in case…
October 28, 2009 at 3:07 pm |
Suggest you join Bookcrossing http://www.bookcrossing.com and then leave the book of your choice. Hopefully you will then be able to follow who has read it and where it has travelled on to.
October 28, 2009 at 3:07 pm |
I don’t think we need any one single book in every hotel room in the world, as I’m not into the autistic habit of constantly rereading the same book.
The last hotel room I stayed in (for TAMLondon) had, in addition to the bible, a collection of (other) fictional works, a London travel guide and some magazines on the bookshelf. I liked it.
If it comes to help for people in need: A directory with emergency and social services telephone numbers will probably more useful.
Something else: Stealing or defacing other people’s property is not right. But leaving the telephone numbers and reviews of local escorts is a public service.
October 28, 2009 at 4:11 pm
@ Wolf
Neurodiverse or not (I can’t really tell whether you are using the term ‘Autistic’ disparagingly, hope not), I thoroughly recommend that you try rereading a book you read before. If you really don’t make a have it of it, you are likely to be missing out on exploring the layers of meaning in great works.
October 28, 2009 at 3:08 pm |
I’m with @Observer. Alienating people just doesn’t work. Why would you want to do that? When was the last time anyone here thought “They’ve just taken the piss out of me – maybe they have a point.”? I’d still like porn in the other drawer though…
October 28, 2009 at 3:15 pm |
I’d like to know what Richard thinks. He strikes me as tolerant, but perhaps I’m just projecting…?
October 28, 2009 at 3:16 pm |
I don’t mind the Bible in hotel rooms, I don’t notice it, if I even see it at all since I don’t usually use the drawers in hotel rooms. If any atheist organization wants to put another book in with the Bible, that would be great (though I doubt the hotels would go for it). There’s also a Buddhist book that’s often found in hotel rooms in Japan. I have a copy, but don’t recall the name.
But this has brought up an interesting idea. Maybe we should all leave whatever books we don’t want, or that we want others to read in hotel drawers. Hotels should leave them there and it can be a great book exchange. Leave any book you want, only take books you actually want to read. Oh wait, then it’s a youth hostel.
October 28, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Maybe we need a code on thecover to make clear whether we are getting rid of rubbish or passing on what we think is a key to the universe … I doubt it would be self evident to all readers.
October 29, 2009 at 3:09 pm
@Observer: I contemplated whether the system should only be for worthwhile books or for all books. A code might help. I think the only way it can work is if you leave any old book and people judge for themselves. After all, I’m sure there are plenty of people who would leave Ayn Rand books thinking it was a great piece of wisdom to pass along. I would disagree.
There have been books I have read and chosen to dispose of instead of giving away/trading/taking to used bookstore because I thought they were such vapid nonsense, but I don’t do that often.
October 28, 2009 at 3:19 pm |
When I was a teenager, in my religious time, I used to bring with me a pocket copy of the koran and I think that if someone needs to read the bible, he/she will do the same and bring it on holiday with him/her, also because he/she will bring his/her own copy (biblle & koran are both so different depending on translantions and language used), so no need to have it in the room draw…
October 28, 2009 at 5:31 pm
But how wonderful, if I have lapsed, to find God calling me again through His book in a lonely hotel room, reminding me of another facet of reality through half remembered stories and lessons.
October 28, 2009 at 3:30 pm |
Otowi’s comment is correct. The reason that Bibles are found in so many hotel rooms is that Gideons International have made it their mission to distribute free bibles throughout the world, including placing them in hotel rooms. You can look up on their website http://www.gideons.org/ if you want to know their reasons.
Personally I have no problem with finding a bible in my hotel room and still have the red New Testament that was given to me at school.
If people want alternative reading matter placed in their hotel drawers then presumably they’ll have to set up their own obook distributing organisation or campaign for the Gideons mission to be stopped.
October 28, 2009 at 4:01 pm |
There is no compunction to read it – I don’t read most things left in hotel rooms. In fact I usually have trouble enough finishing my holiday reading to take on the Bible as well.
October 28, 2009 at 4:44 pm |
Lately I’ve taken to leaving free copies of my album next to the bible. I’d like to think it provides a similarly religious experience.
(I also leave one next to the emergency instructions in the seat-back pocket on airplanes, although it is not to be used as a flotation device.)
October 28, 2009 at 4:57 pm |
@Observer,
You appear to have completely missed the point so allow me to post it again for you to see
There are some good bits, for sure but things like this never really struck me as “lovely”
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
“As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.”
During wartimes or not, that’s horrendous morality, isn’t it?
October 28, 2009 at 5:46 pm
Yes, I think we’ve agreed then, as I’ve written elsewhere, that there are some pearls and some wacky bits that look wrong to me. I don’t know enough history to know how it fits with the morality of the times then. I certainly wouldn’t advocate it now.
Do I think that, as a result, we should reedit or burn the Bibles?
No.
The BIG story is one that covers generations and leads from the Old Testament to the New. Things were overturned just as the money-changers tables were overturned.
In fact if you look at the end of the preceding chapter in Deuteronomy (19:21) you’ll see the familiar ‘eye for an eye’ which was explicitly overturned by Christ in Matthew 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, “Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” The revelation and demonstration of forgiveness and compassion is the big story.
October 28, 2009 at 5:18 pm |
Those who would likely read it probably already know what’s in it. Those who don’t might be surprised. I think of Bibles in hotel rooms like I think of hospice care — it is for the sake of making those who put the Bibles there feel good rather than helping out those who find them. (Most hotel Bibles I’ve seen show very little wear and tear!)
October 28, 2009 at 5:50 pm
I’m pretty sure we disagree, then, about not only the value of Bibles in hotels, but also about who benefits from hospice care. Are you really saying patients don’t derive benefit from hospice care or have I completely misunderstood you (even if this is drifting way off topic)?
October 28, 2009 at 5:48 pm |
I think that they put the bible there in hope that it would make the guests more honest, so they won’t steal or wreck the room.
I used to travel a lot with my cousin, who has a theory that a place is haunted when they leave the bible out on the desk. They should be in the drawers according to her. She thinks that they are out because people turned to them when they saw a ghost. Once, she made us change the room because the bible was out and it was opened.
I’d like to see restaurant guides. When I’m traveling, I always end up spending too much time looking for a nice place to eat or eating at boring chain restaurants. But I guess people do steal them if they are available, and they go out of date. Maybe that’s why there’s bible. It never goes out of date, sort of…
October 28, 2009 at 6:12 pm |
Dear me, Andrew – the bits you select were written during some pretty turbulent times in the reign of Josiah, more than 2,700 years ago. Of course the morals, particularly in the earlier bits, are not those of a modern, liberal democracy. Is that what you expect? If you are interested in the historical development of the Jewish scriptures you can see the change to a more benevolent morality through time. Daniel, for example, is much more enlightened to our eyes than, say, Joshua. The NT is much more about the development of the early Christian church in a hostile world than an accurate historical account of a particular figure.
Some of the writing in the Bible, especially in the AV, is sublime. Try The Song of Solomon, the Sermon on the Mount or Corinthians 1.
October 29, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Mythos,
I’ve read the Bible…all of it. Well, I skipped some of the lists, obviously.
I’m not saying it is all awful, I’m just questioning whether it is “lovely” and it clearly isn’t. It’s got some downright horrendous stuff in it.
I don’t mind it being in the room for others but I don’t like it being there myself. I did read it in full. That’s a massive part of how I lost my faith. I was sick of people telling me that Christians only pretend to have read the Bible so I read it all and hey presto, I’m free to be a much more more “moral” person than that set of books dictates.
October 28, 2009 at 6:52 pm |
And don’t forget that our present moral code is, to a large extent, founded on NT precepts, which have been refined and developed over time. Christianity helped to bring about more civilized rules of engagement in wartime – early versions of the Geneva Convention, if you like. Prior to that the victors killed all the men and enslaved the women and children. Talking of slavery, it was Christian morals based on the NT teachings that helped eradicate it in the west.
We cannot divorce our present day cultural norms from the historical imperatives from which they are derived. And, like it or not, Christianity has been one of the main drivers of our intellectual and moral development. The other main feeder into the Christian narrative (apart from the Jewish scriptures) has been Classical Greek philosophy, particularly those Plato and Aristotle via the great Christian thinkers Augustine and Aquinas respectively.
If one is interested in how we came to be as we are the Bible is indispensable, so keep it in the hotel rooms I say. As I said earlier reading it is not compulsory.
October 28, 2009 at 6:59 pm |
Mythos, that’s just simply not true. Our present moral code is no more founded on the new testament than it is founded on Roald Dahl.
As for the rest, man alive. I think I might start a new Enlightenment.
October 28, 2009 at 7:55 pm |
Tracy:
Where do you think the Enlightenment sprang from? It did not develop in isolation from our cultural past. the Enlightenment was not one thing, nor was it the product of one brain – it was a complex development of ideas from post-reformation thinkers. These include: Locke, Hume, Berkeley, Burke, Hazlitt, Paine, Smith, and later Wilberforce, Bentham, and Mill etc. Some of these were Christian, some Deists (Paine, for example) and others were agnostic but all were rooted in the morals and learning of the time based on the Bible and the Classics.
I suggest you re-read the NT and look to see where our concepts of support for the less fortunate, turning the other cheek, love for thy neighbour, love thine enemy, not persecuting minorities etc come from. The Parables are a good place to start. Without these precepts we would still be living in a Nietzschian type of society where only the Ubermenschen have the freedoms we all take for granted today.
If you are interested, there are some good debates on these and other issues at: http://www.boltonian.edublogs.org
October 28, 2009 at 8:00 pm |
In certain motels, and whenever I am looking in the bedside drawer for a pen or pad of paper, I am always surprised to find the Bible. It never crossed my mind that people actually read it ( which I guess has been an inaccurate assumption on my part).
Something universally appreciated and/or recognized might be a useful choice for travelers. What comes to mind immediately are the tales of Nasrudin. These tales, or stories, offer humor, and also food for thought – what better way to drift into sleep.
October 28, 2009 at 8:14 pm |
I would like to see the most relevant text from all religions’ “holy book” bundled into a single book. And throw in Stephen Hawkings “A brief history of time” or something similar for the non-believers out there
That way everyone gets something to read 
October 28, 2009 at 8:41 pm |
I despise the majority of Christians. A lot of them are constantly out to prove something regardless if anyone want to hear what they have to say. Case-in-point with Observer’s constant barrage of Christian defense. DEFENSE! DEFENSE!
Christianity is the religious version of Capitalism. All those lame verses and sayings posted on gigantic church placards are merely advertisements attempting to entice people into a particular place of worship. MONEY MONEY MONEY.
As far as the Bible in the hotel room, I view it as just another advertisement. I always excitedly look for it, proclaiming “OH NO!” if it’s not, followed by a joke about someone in the Church system lacking in their distribution duties. If it is there, I entertain the idea of reading it, usually managing a page or two then putting it down wondering how and why anyone would bother themselves with it. It’s a headache and a ripoff of the religions that came before it.
Alternative book suggestion: Huston Smith’s “The World’s Religions.” Considering the majority of people do subscribe to a particular religion, I feel a book that covers some major religions of the world would be a more suitable choice.
October 28, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Wow … ‘constant barrage of Christian defence’
Where is your evidence?
Lets see …
I have:
- written about toilet roll folding.
- complimented the idea of having a guest book
- suggested books from different faiths, nonaligned spiritual books and nonreligious books (I think I was the first to mention Carl Sagan in this discussion)
- complimented the idea of book crossing
- criticised a sweeping generalisation by Tom which he has not rebutted
- recognised the current popularity of TGD, (I don’t think I have levelled any criticism of it)
- Highlighted that other nonChristian faiths are increasingly supported in hotel bedrooms.
- Suggested two books by Nigel Warburton, who I thinkI read somewhere is an atheist (not sure about that) certainly his books balanced books about philosophy, not spiritual tomes.
- Challenged the sweeping generalisation that the bible contained no historical events or characters, some discussion about that but I don’t think I’ve been refuted on that point.
- Stood my ground and justified why I feel the Bible is a lovely book
- Explored where figures an statistics might take us if we tried to use them as a measure of inclusivity, highlighting the difficulty of such an approach.
- Stated that I would like to see a mixture of books available in my ideal hotel room.
- Said that I think the Bible says some wacky things but that the grand story is profoundly powerful.
- Criticised some rhetorical devices or unclear communication/thinking by Tracy, which she has not come back to defend.
- Suggested that there is value in rereading some books
Shared the personal experience of encountering a Gideon Bible at a low point.
- Defended the big picture story of the Bible when pressed by Andrew (Matthew versus Deuteronomy)
- Sought clarification from Steve Wiggins who seemed to be implying that hospices did not benefit patients
Which part do you identify as ‘constant barrage of Christian defence?
I am not critical of Atheism, atheists or agnostics unless they become offensive or start to rely on poor justifications. I find it surprising that the sceptics so often do not engage with the debate and recoil when challenged to stand by what they said. Where I have been most robust here, my criticisms have clearly been levelled at the arguments not the people, asking for clarification or justification. Yes, I defended my claim that the Bible is valuable in hotel rooms and, when pressed a second time gave my response to a specific question about the Bible. But those were a small part of what I have written today.
So … again … where is the evidence for your assertion that I made constant barrage of Christian defence?
Do churches advertise? Sure. So do atheists, I don’t see that advertising in itself negates the assertions made by the advertisers. I think advertising is a red herring. Part of the Christian church’s mission is evangelical which I don’t wholeheartedly agree with. Adverts can be about spreading a message, not just increasing turnover.
I hope I’ve modelled the behaviours I’d welcome if I saw them more often in debate from sceptics. Behaviours which, as a trained scientist, I expect from those who espouse critical thinking and reason. I genuinely believe that as a society we move forward better when we share ideas between communities rather that sit in huddles with like-minded folk imagining what we think outsiders might think rather than asking them.
October 28, 2009 at 10:33 pm
You’re right. I have no evidence for you defense of Christianity. So I’ll reword my statement.
“Case-in-point with Observer’s constant barrage of annoying comments I can only assume are coming from a Christian.”
The evidence for my annoyance being your overwhelming presence in the comments of this blog-entry and reply to my comment.
If my assumption that you are a Christian is wrong, do tell.
October 28, 2009 at 10:40 pm
whoops. forgot an “r”.
October 29, 2009 at 12:01 am
I didn’t ask for you to provide evidence for my defence of Christianity, just for evidence that I had put up a constant barrage of defence.
‘Annoying’ is more of a value judgement. A few here have supported my views. My drive to contribute here is not my faith, it’s my dislike of poorly justified arguments and personal attacks from a community that appears to pride itself on being a voice of reason. My presence in the debate clearly isn’t sufficient by itself to constitute an annoyance. It requires someone to become annoyed. So more correctly, your evidence is simply that you are annoyed. That’s fair enough, if you are annoyed I’d encourage you to engage with the debate with evidence and energy, you, I or any number of readers may get closer to the truth as a result. I claim to be open to persuasion, scientists claim to be open to persuasion of evidence too.
If I’ve contributed a lot it’s because a lot of different strands have sprung up as a result of Richard’s prompt. More than one of them has (for example) made unjustified claims, I’m not minded to apologise for highlighting poor arguments. In other areas I’ve supported both faith based and non faith based ideas.
In an attempt to answer your question regarding my faith.
I was brought up in by Anglican parents who went to church, still do. In my early 20s I encountered the evangelical wing of Christianity for the first time and was uncomfortable with their intensity. I gave up going to church but not the faith that had supported me. I believe parts of the Bible but not all of it literally. I think the story of Jesus’ life is a great example and the idea of loving your enemy an inspirational challenge. I don’t think that Christianity has a monopoly on high ethics or wisdom. I’m more comfortable with Christianity than any other faith I’ve come across so far, but I struggle with some aspects of the creed. I’ve no strong desire to evangelise the Christian faith. I have an unusual and strong faith which doesn’t quite fit perfectly with any mainstream faith that I have encountered. I have no strong desire to evangelise that faith either.
I do have a strong desire to challenge some unsubstantiated claims made by the sceptic community. I am concerned less with the damage that they might do to the faith communities than with the damage they may do to the scientific community in coming years. I’m passionate about science but not scientism. I’m saddened that the sceptical community is uncritical of its own fringes which appear to drift too often into hyperbole, poorly justified arguments and personal attack. the ‘science side’ of the debates is not alone into falling into this rather distasteful practice but it is the scientific side which, above all, should be expected to set the example of relying on evidence and reason, not emotion and invective. This poor argumentation is in my opinion no less Bad Science than much of what the likes of Ben Goldacre publicises in the alternative medicine and science journalism communities, I feel. If it deters some bright students with strong faith from entering science as a career, I think that we will all be poorer as a result.
October 29, 2009 at 1:02 am
I would say despise was a very strong word. I can wholeheartedly agree that there are people who will not accept hearing any scientific form of explanation of creation, or listen to any other religious view without taking a very strong standpoint, and there are others who feel the need to project and implant their views upon people who don’t wish to hear it, instead of advertising their course and giving their view to those who wish to hear it.
However, I find many others (particularly in this modern day and age in a secular society) far more open minded. I myself am a christian, but am very interested in hearing what athiests and other religions/faiths have to say. Do I think that buddhist wisdom is intriguing? Certainly. I relish to learn about an oppertunity to learn about a culture, so my answer to richards question is that I would love to see a range of religious/cultural texts to gain an idea of where I was staying.
To me, I have found the most reasoned arguement (and again, this is only an opinion) to belong to Observer, who remains very openminded about the topic in hand. I have read all of the comments above with an open mind and (quite often) with a pinch of salt, as everybody is entitled to an opinion. I however, think that ‘despise’ is a very strong word on a very large group of people, when quite a few of us are approaching topics like this with a more open mind than some (and only some) of the athiets (here, and in other places) have treated this subject with.
October 29, 2009 at 8:35 pm
@ Observer
You’re right. I have no evidence for your defense of Christianity or your constant barrage of defense. I think I will just get rid of the word defense all together. There is no defense, your just commenting – I see your point. I will also remove the word constant, due to the fact that it is not completely constant, as you do not comment to every single comment of this blog. But there is still a barrage. A barrage being your “rapid and continuous delivery of linguistic communication” (thefreedictionary.com). The evidence of your barrage being your 18 comments prior the one made in response mine. I don’t feel the need to explain what these comments are as I am only pointing out that it is a barrage. You have provided more than 10% (18/150) of the comments to this blog entry. While other may have provided a similar statistic, you seemed to stick out. I guess you’re the “lucky one.” You could even say that I am delivering a barrage, but only in your direction, in my own defense. While my initial comment was a personal attack – which I apologize for – it was merely just a comment. Just a comment.
I understand annoying is a value judgement. It is also clear that it is a value judgement I am not afraid to make and defend. I am allowed to have an opinion, as are you and everybody else. Getting stuck in my emotions, it is my own personal flaw that I often fail to realize this fact.
The key difference between you and me is our drives to contribute; you’re drive primarily being the source of my annoyance.
My drive to contribute was to merely make a comment. Granted my comment was filled with some offending blanket statements, it was still just a comment and my intended contribution. I again apologize for the offensive nature of my comment as it clearly was an unwarranted attack on you. While I did kind of ask for it by calling you out, my intention was not to argue with you, but simply comment on you and this blog entry.
Taking from your comment above, I interpret your drive as having the intention to leave more than a comment and pointing out the flaws in others arguments. Your “presence in the debate,” I feel, is sufficient by itself to constitute an annoyance. You are actively creating a debate in the comment section of this blog by offering your input on others comments. While some choose to do this, I feel there are better places for said debates to take place. Heck, why don’t you start your own blog? You can write entire scientific papers on there if you so desire. I don’t want to seem as if I condemning intellectual arguments or thoughts, because I am not. My problem is that you are going through things with a fine toothed comb. I wouldn’t be annoyed if you were actually a contributor to this blog, as that would be your job. But as far as I can tell, you are just an observer.
Your title ought to read Orator because are doing more that just observing.
I am an undergraduate biology student, but I don’t feel the need to provide scientific analysis of other’s comments. I am all for science and it’s intellectual opportunities, just in the proper places. Proper analysis should be thorough, and I applaud you thoroughness. I can argue (or at least I think I can) but it is a tiring task to do properly. Again, this is the difference between me and you. I leave the analysis for the classrooms and libraries, not in the comment sections of other peoples blogs.
I again would like to apologize for attacking you and hope this reply doesn’t come off as another attack, but merely explanation.
November 5, 2009 at 2:37 am
@be rad
Thanks for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully.
While I did feel your original post made an unwarranted claim I guess the eye catching part was the very first line about ‘despising’ a group of people. I guess that word rang alarm bells for me and was a motivation for me wanting to critique your arguments and try to persuade you that perhaps a softer form of antagonism might be more productive.
The distinction about ‘annoying’ being a value judgement wasn’t meant to imply that it wasn’t something you felt, nor even that it wasn’t valid (or invalid) just that by its nature it carried it out of the realm of something I felt I could reasonably argue about.
Thanks for the apology, the truth is an apology wasn’t necessary as far as I was concerned but I accept it in the spirit in which it was given (I hope that doesn’t sound sanctimonious … it reads that way …)
I think we simply disagree about the validity/appropriateness of debates in the comments sections of blogs. I hadn’t really considered that debate might be regarded as inappropriate but I think I understand your point of view. It’s something I’ll think about.
You’re right it IS tiring (hard work) being precise with language and not settling in to emotionally charged words, hyperbole and easy personal criticism. Words can have a powerful effect, though and, as I’ve said elsewhere, I feel that the rationalist community might reasonably be expected to use more objective/rational language to convey their arguments powerfully. Some do, but others make about as much sense as Deuteronomy (joke). I expect rationalists to criticise the religious community using rational argument, but I also expect that rationalists should expect to defend against rational argument … rationally.
I have no argument with humanists, I disgaree with atheism but I’d uphold the right of people to hold that set of beliefs. I think my concerns, such as I have, are about (over) zealous evangelism from any group. Perhaps I feel more comfortable debating in the science arena than a religious discussion because I value science more than religion … or because I know more about science than religion.
This discussion has spiralled off into an interesting eddy.
Best regards
Observer
October 28, 2009 at 10:56 pm |
Speaking selfishly, I’d be happy to find M R James’ Ghost Stories. I can pick it up and read one anytime. I keep one by the bed at home.
October 28, 2009 at 11:15 pm |
In a Premier Inn in Glasgow this weekend just gone there was a Gideon Bible. One of the inside pages at the front read “Dear Reader, All the best. God”. Brilliant!
As for my opinion, I hate there being a bible in hotel rooms. Religion is personal, so don’t shove it in my face.
October 28, 2009 at 11:54 pm |
Personally, I’d rather there wasn’t anything in the drawer that wasn’t directly related to safety or information about the area I was visiting. However, if I had to choose reading material, I’d probably choose “The Demon Haunted World”. That book helped me far more than the babble ever could.
October 29, 2009 at 2:47 am |
Books by Sagan et al are great but likely too long for casual hotel/motel reading. I’d love to see a copy of Michael Shermer’s “The Soul of Science” in every room. A quick, easy read and makes an excellent pitch for the beauty, wonder and awe found in science as opposed to a book of mythical people doing bad things to other humans.
October 29, 2009 at 5:22 am |
I must say I was very impressed recently when I found a “Buddhists guide to philosophy” or some such, next to the gideon’s bible.
I thought the offer of choice was a better step than replacing it with something else.
But I brought my own book to read, I was reading Jerry A. Coyne at the time…
October 29, 2009 at 6:33 am
Might be cool if they offered something like a compendium of religious and philosophical ideas. Call it simply “Us.” One thing you find when exploring these ideas is that they possess more similarities than differences. I would definitely dig flipping through that while I await room service.
Good on ya for bringing this up Richard, it is quite peculiar when you think about it. The presence of the book seems to suggest something about the hotel and for that matter American society itself.
October 29, 2009 at 6:11 am |
“You do not need the bible to justify love, but no better tool has been invented to justify hate.” ~ Richard A. Weatherwax
October 29, 2009 at 8:38 am |
Tim Says:
Why is it shoved in your face? In my experience the Gideon bible is usually shoved in a drawer.
ButMadNNW:
What a silly quote. Where do you think our concept of charitable love comes from in the first place? Wars between cultures, nations, religions, classes, families, political creeds and so forth have happened throughout history. Pretexts are easy to find. Do you think banning the Bible from the world will change that?
For those who suggest other books as a substitute, who is going to pay for and distribute them?
Mal’s idea is the best – BYO.
RobGuy:
Sorting out the factual wheat from the religious chaff of Judeao_Christian history is a fascinating study. If it’s your bag you’ll find lots of interesting posts and debates on the subject here: http://www.boltonian.edublogs.org
October 29, 2009 at 10:15 am |
I’m surprised, as an athiest myself, Observer comes across as the most reasonable poster on this item. Whilst engaging with closed minded religious people tends to be a waste of time, he seems open to argument. It’s funny, he comes across as a critical thinker, wheras other posts seem to be just bashing something or other and then standing back. Having a go at hime for posting a lot in a free forum seems particulary strange. Why would you want only people who totally agree with you all the time to post. That would be so boring.
October 29, 2009 at 11:02 am |
but why replace it?
with thousands of pages of thin paper, the bible makes the best material for rolling up a joint
high times!
October 29, 2009 at 11:34 am |
Well, strictly speaking, the Bible is an anthology of 60+ books, poems and letters written by various people over a period of a few thousand years.
There is quite a lot of dodgy morality in there (particularly in the OT), questionable religious practices and numerous incidents of crime, war and bloodshed. But if you ignore all the religious overtones, there are some interesting tales in there, if you know where to look!
From the badly mistranslated account of the first genderless human being separated into male and female beings, via talking serpents, big floods, and long sleeved garments (not multicoloured as some would have us believe!) through to the nomadic tribe eventually settling, discovering their neighbours are more powerful than they, and eventually a wandering preacher who gets executed for annoying the religious authorities…
I wonder if English translations of other religious texts have numerous action-packed adventure tales hidden within their covers?
Alternatively, you could grab a book or two from the library before you leave and ignore the tome hiding in your hotel drawer – or, even more radically, use the tome as a paperweight…
October 29, 2009 at 1:36 pm |
mittfh:
Correct. Much of the Torah and many of the historical books were collected in the reign of Josiah, 6th century BC, King of Judah, after the collapse of the northern kingdom of Israel. The various scriptures from both kingdoms were redacted to form one account. There were two priestly traditions (Mushite in the south and Aaronid in the north) and two creation myths, which is why Genesis reads oddly and seems to contradict itself on occasions.
The later books were mostly compiled during and just after the Babylonian captivity. The book of Isaiah was written by at least two, and possibly three, different authors. The monotheistic cult of YHWH was really only established during Josiah’s reign – it was the triumph of the southern Mushite (Moses) priests over their northern, Aaronid, neighbours, whose god was called Elohim (which means, simply, God). Other parts of the Torah were written during the reign of Josiah’s grandfather, Hezekiah.
There is no historical evidence, incidentally, for the bondage in Egypt, nor the Exodus nor Joshua’s conquest of Canaan, although there is some evidence that Semitic foreigners were present in the Nile delta during the Hyksos period (from 1670 BC). Also, it is almost certain that a united kingdom never existed.
Other things to read include The Epic of Gilgamesh, which is a Sumerian creation myth and series of folk tales from well before OT times. There are many similarities with the Biblical creation myths – a hint, perhaps of either a pan-Middle Eastern tradition or migration (either of ideas or people) westward towards Canaan.
October 29, 2009 at 3:18 pm |
I’d simply burn the damn’ thing…
October 29, 2009 at 3:54 pm |
there is enough to think about when managing a hotel… gideons provide a free service and for some reason I always check for it – it is one guage of housekeeping service if it is arranged neatly in drawer or shelf… but my attention is always drawn to the tourist services folio, so my ideal hotel room would have a random selection of locally authored and topical books and magazines.
October 29, 2009 at 4:24 pm |
Why would you want to replace a book that has convinced thousands of people NOT to go through with the suicides they had been planning when they checked in? See http://www.gideons.org for these true stories!
October 29, 2009 at 5:40 pm |
i don’t mind the bible in my hotel room.
i don’t see why its a problem.
if you don’t want to read it you don’t have to
October 29, 2009 at 5:44 pm |
i don’t mind the bible in the hotel room.
you just don’t have to read it if you dont want to.
what is the big deal?
October 29, 2009 at 5:52 pm |
Andrew:
I am in a slightly different position from you. I never really had any faith to lose although I was a regular churchgoer in my childhood. My choice of church depended on where the best youth club was or where my friends went, so I experienced Methodist, Congregationalist (now United Reformed), CoE, RC, even Pentecostalist for goodness sake (and what a strange bunch they were). I started asking questions at a young age and since nobody has ever been able to answer any of them satisfactorily I put Christianity down to wishful thinking. But this scepticism has never prevented me from enjoying the music, ritual and ceremony of high church services, particularly the Latin mass. I also have a soft spot for the non-doctrinaire denominations such as the Quakers and Unitarianism.
Anyway, I was not satisfied with merely dismissing the historical inconsistencies, dubious morals and risible metaphysics so I set about trying to understand why many people seem to need religion and why Judaism, Christianity and Islam are still on the go – they clearly serve a purpose. I also became interested in the history of the Biblical period, particularly the inter-testament period of the time of Jesus and to find out if such a person existed. Another avenue of interest is comparing the so-called Abrahamic faiths with Therevada Buddhism (my wife is Buddhist). All fascinating and highly complex stuff but what we must not do is try to pretend that Christianity has had no bearing on our present day morals – we are the product of our history, after all. Enough of this for here but if you would like to continue the discussion please go to: http://www.boltonian.edublogs.org where you will be very welcome.
October 29, 2009 at 7:57 pm |
Any version of The Worst-Case Scenario Survival Handbook. Very entertaining and educational. It should keep everyone busy for a bit longer.
I don’t really think the bible is very appropriate any more, but I don’t really care about it being in hotel rooms. It’s easy to ignore.
October 29, 2009 at 10:34 pm |
I just wonder whether the Gideons’ Bibles have ever been used as the medium for any social experiments. Have there been studies to inverstigate how often they are used/looked at/rejected?
October 30, 2009 at 3:57 am |
I’ve actually been known to take the bible in my room to the nearest rubbish bin.
October 30, 2009 at 10:18 am |
I agree with Mike Rafone above. I am not religious. However, on the off chance that somebody might just find the bible and think twice about topping themselves – I am prepared to leave it there in peace, without anything extra written into it.
Not a funny answer or an evangelical atheist one, I know – but a human one I hope.
October 30, 2009 at 10:23 am |
My husband and I recently went to a hotel for an anniversary getaway, and I stowed my books in my bedside table. It wasn’t until we were packing to leave that we realized the whole time we had the Gideon Bible in one table and my copy of The Selfish Gene in the other.
So put a Bible and Dawkins in every room. People can read the Bible for entertainment and then Dawkins to explain why that’s all it is.
October 30, 2009 at 10:28 am |
Out of curiosity, what in the Bible would make anyone change their mind about committing imminent suicide?
October 30, 2009 at 11:29 pm
The word of God (?)
November 5, 2009 at 9:29 am
Nothing…
For almost all my religious years I sufferd from major life threatening depression. Listening to Dawkins God Delusion (Audiobook) finally helped
me recover with a sense of live and reality that no other book ever gave me.
My religious indoctrination was slowly killing me.
Please count me as one of the people not committing suicide because they read the “God Delusion”
October 30, 2009 at 10:35 am |
I don’t know – I have never been suicidal or read the Bible much – but you never know….
October 30, 2009 at 4:35 pm |
I’d actually like to see a Bible. To see a Dawkins book in a hotel room… how sad.
October 30, 2009 at 8:59 pm |
Keep the bible. But hollow it out and hide a flask filled with bourbon in it.
October 30, 2009 at 11:10 pm |
I was gonna say what the guy before me did…
PS – If you have so much time on your hands as to stew over what everyone else thinks, why not ask us what we think about the swine flu vaccine that ain’t within a thousand miles of anyplace you are at any given moment… or why a pound of chicken wings cost more per pound that a slab of good beef.
I’m sure you’re busy now so… ta ta.
October 30, 2009 at 11:25 pm |
Now that would be a gross misrepresentation.
October 30, 2009 at 11:54 pm |
It is a very good question! I always wonder, why there aren´t some of the best books that a country has published. I am not an American, but when I go to America, I always take with me:
Hermann Melville: Moby Dick
Henry David Thoreau: Walden
and “A scarlett letter” (Harwthorne)
Isn´t it funny, that I do that as a German?
Why not let the hotel manager and the guest compet about what are the most interesting american classics?
I would be interested in any suggestion und have a look!
but perhaps it is not visible for Americans. What would you suggest a german hotel manager to have in the drawer of your hotel room?
If you ever come to my hotel room in germany, you will find at the moment: Kant: die Kritik der Urteilskraft, Theodor Storm: Der Schimmelreiter, and Goethe: die Farbenlehre.
Suggest me something more interesting, but do not forget to read your own classics!
Markus
October 31, 2009 at 11:27 pm |
I like Bartlett’s Quotations. It suits all tastes with a variety of flavors. It even has an index to research a subject. Inspiration, humor, foolishness- the entire human litany in one place.
November 1, 2009 at 4:35 pm |
What about a Postsecret book? They are definitely bite size and usually thought-provoking. They have a good balance between light/humorous secrets (I like the smell of my own farts) and heavy ones (Everyone I knew before September 11th thinks that I’m dead) and they have the number of a national suicide prevention hotline in there as well. Voila! All bases covered.
November 1, 2009 at 8:59 pm |
The Gideons supply a copy of the Bible to the hotel visitor out of their own personal finances. Maybe they know something that they want to share?
Perhpas we should mail Carl Sagan and ask him to make available free copies of his books for all hotel rooms.
November 1, 2009 at 10:27 pm |
Well now.
It’s probably clear that I appreciate the work of The Gideons and feel that an attitude of gratitude suits me when it comes to finding a Bible in the room where I lay my head. That said, I found myself looking at another book for a few minutes a couple of days ago before I did a double take and realised that it would make a pretty good addition (or alternative, depending on your Bible (in)tolerance level) to a hotel room. I’d not seen the book before and I’ve not read it cover but my initial impression of ‘Geary’s Guide to the World’s Great Aphorists’ by James Geary is pretty favourable, very ‘dippable into’ with quotes from philosphers, comedians, politicians, authors. My only disappointment was to find nothing from Antoine de Saint-Exupery.
November 2, 2009 at 1:30 pm |
Hi man good boook
November 2, 2009 at 1:50 pm |
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ for all you skeptics!
November 3, 2009 at 6:00 pm |
I’ve noticed that the Gideons bible always has a little placard inside of it inviting the reader to keep the bible if he or she finds it useful.
I find it useful to keep them out of the hotel. I have 12 of them now.
November 3, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Isn’t denying someone else the chance to make the same decision, as bad as forcing your own upon them?
Your little game, IMO, is nothing but a form of petty religious tyranny.
November 4, 2009 at 10:15 pm |
“Influence” by Cialdini. It’s handy for travelling salesmen AND those about to encounter salesmen, and even contains hilarious anecdotes. Everyone wins! Hooray!
November 5, 2009 at 11:42 am |
This thread is an excellent example of just how zealous atheists can be in their outlook. I read much of Dawkins’ work years before it became trendy to do so, but in recent times The God Delusion seems to have taken on the mantle of a sacred text for atheists (just look at how you are suggesting it replace the Bible).
As someone else has noted, being offended by a passive object is a bit odd to say the least – religion is not contagious, you won’t catch Christianity just by being in the presence of a Bible. For those of you who wilfully remove it for no other reason than to ensure it is not in the hotel room, or who request that it be removed by taking it to reception, I think that you are giving the Bible more credence than you would perhaps want to; you seem to believe that it has some kind of power over people and that this power is inherently bad or evil, otherwise why be bothered by it?
November 5, 2009 at 1:41 pm |
First: I don’t mind there being a bible in hotel rooms, for some it might be comforting in difficult times.
However I do believe there are other books that could replace or supplement the bible. Maybe something like Aesop’s Fables, or some collection of myths and fables from around the world. This would give the reader a mixture of good storytelling and good advice, as well as demonstrating the common moral grounds most people have shared for thousands of years.
November 5, 2009 at 5:58 pm |
101 ways to murder a hooker in a hotel room. A really interesting read and practical too.
November 10, 2009 at 4:15 pm |
maybe a richard wiseman book
November 10, 2009 at 6:53 pm |
I wonder… what if someone left a Koran or some other spiritual tome? Would these be as quickly abducted, dismissed or ravaged?
The question, I guess… is whether this is a Christian thing. Is this a crusade against Christ… or those who follow his teachings or claim the title of Christian?
We are all of us, individuals. If you have a gripe against a religion, your problem is your own because these are concepts… abstracts even, and by themselves, nothing without humans.
Like guns… it takes the finger and the will of a human being to pull a trigger.
November 21, 2009 at 10:20 pm |
u people have jokes the only funny joke is when you find yourselves in the presents of or lord jesuschrist our savior and hes going to say THE jokes on you!!!!go to hell an burn all of those who dont repent and dont accept your lord jesus christ as your savior!!!!!!
) know lets talk about that……
November 22, 2009 at 1:37 am
While I’m mindful that this may be some bizarre false flag mission, I feel it’s worth noting that it’s hard to reconcile the image of Christ banishing anyone to Hell gleefully with the character of God revealed in Luke 23:34.
December 12, 2009 at 6:02 pm |
I’m not a Christian and never have been. I was, however, brought up in a generally Christian environment and am far more familiar with Christianity than any other major religion. Beyond these facts, my religious/spiritual beliefs are irrelevant to this conversation.
I own a Bible because it’s a major part of our Western culture, and as such is one of the basic indispensibles of any decent library (along with Shakespeare and a decent dictionary). Over the decades I’ve read many parts of it for various reasons, from pure research to pure entertainment.
So no, even though I’m not a Christian, I’m not offended by finding a Bible in my hotel room. Sometimes I’m peeved because it takes up a lot of drawer space that should be available for my own stuff.
I don’t think a hotel should offer ANY books in the rooms. Taste in reading matter is just too individual. How can you know what I like, or what I fancy reading for the brief time I occupy the room? Maybe I’ve travelled cross-country to a best friend’s funeral and want to be consoled and uplifted. On the other hand, maybe I’m on holiday and want to wallow in light fiction.
Now, the idea of a hotel with its own library is something I’d endorse!
December 12, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Just wanted to add that I’ve just come back from a trip. Our hotel room had a set of phone books which also included a detailed street map of the area. Now, that was useful.
A local guidebook would also be a good idea. Not necessarily in the room, but at least available on request from reception.
January 4, 2010 at 1:06 pm |
When I think Hotels, I think holidays. Who is going to going to be ‘in times of great need’ on holiday? (Yes, I know are probably great examples contrary to my statement). On the other hand, if you were there on a business trip, I can see why you might need support
I will admit, I am impressed at how the Gideons have managed to put a Bible in the drawer of EVERY hotel room I have ever stayed in. However, I think it is unbalanced to only cover one religion.
Above, I read suggestions of books like Aesop’s Fables (for bed time reading), local guide books (if you like last minute planning), and pen and paper (who doesn’t like doodling?) I think these are more useful in a hotel room, and don’t take up as much of your minute drawer space.
July 2, 2010 at 4:30 pm |
I for one am glad that the Gideons left Bibles there. If everyone read it the world would be a better place. But unfortunately Satan doesn’t want anyone to know the true God and so he distorts peoples minds so they don’t understand it. However God has promised in the Bible that He will send His Holy Spirit to teach and to help us understand that He is love and wants us to love Him. And I quote, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, should not die, but have everlasting Life.” John 3:16.
Those ‘fictitious stories’ as you like to call them, actually happened and most of them are written in history if you actually looked. They are also given for our benefit, to show us how God has led us in the past. “All Scripture is given by inspiration from God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” 2 Timothy 3:16
October 28, 2010 at 8:47 pm
You took the words right out or my mouth.
July 2, 2010 at 7:16 pm |
You seem to ‘know’ rather a lot, Juliette, for things that happened a long time ago. Why would would the world be a better place for folks having read it? Presumably because they would share your world view and values. Perhaps some of us are a little more curious and questioning than you.
The Bible is a very interesting collection of documents that helps us to get closer to historical events unless, of course, one mistakes it for the literal truth.
Have you read the Pali Canon by the way? If not, I think you might find it a humbling and rewarding experience.
July 5, 2010 at 10:49 pm |
The thing with that Gideon’s Bible left in the hotel room drawer is actually not at all any kind of test of faith but rather, a challenge of personal choice.
You don’t have to touch it, to pick it up, to read it or even try and understand a single word of it. Like every lesson taught from childhood, or any of a thousand traffic regulations, you simply can choose to ignore it.
Like a loaded gun, a bible is absolutely incapable of doing any harm or good without direct, physical human interaction.
So… like the tree that fell in the forest, without the person, there is nothing there to be seen or heard or read or considered.
July 8, 2010 at 2:33 pm |
i need a bible
October 21, 2010 at 11:33 pm |
God Can Never Be Mocked
DID YOU KNOW THESE FACTS?
I SURE DIDN’T TILL NOW
Death is certain but the Bible speaks about untimely death!
Make a personal reflection about this….. Very interesting, read until the end…..
It is written in the Bible (Galatians 6:7):
‘Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sow, that shall he also reap.
Here are some men and women who mocked God :
John Lennon (Singer):
Some years before, during his interview with an American Magazine, he said:
‘Christianity will end, it will disappear. I do not have to argue about that. I am certain. Jesus was ok, but his subjects were too simple, today we are more famous than Him’ (1966). Lennon, after saying that the Beatles were more famous than Jesus Christ, was shot six times.
Tancredo Neves (President of Brazil ):
During the Presidential campaign, he said if he got 500,000 votes from his party, not even God would remove him from Presidency. Sure he got the votes, but he got sick a day before being made President, then he died.
Cazuza (Bi-sexual Brazilian composer, singer and poet):
During A show in Canecio ( Rio de Janeiro ), while smoking his cigarette, he puffed out some smoke into the air and said:’God, that’s for you.’ He died at the age of 32 of LUNG CANCER in a horrible manner.
The man who built the Titanic,
After the construction of Titanic, a reporter asked him how safe the Titanic would be.
With an ironic tone he said: ‘Not even God can sink it’ The result: I think you all know what happened to the Titanic
Marilyn Monroe (Actress)
She was visited by Billy Graham during a presentation of a show. He said the Spirit of God had sent him to preach to her. After hearing what the Preacher had to say, she said:
‘I don’t need your Jesus’. A week later, she was found dead in her apartment
Bon Scott (Singer) The ex-vocalist of AC/DC. On one of his 1979 songs he sang: ‘Don’t stop me; I’m going down all the way, down the highway to hell’. On the 19th of February 1980, Bon Scott was found dead, he had been choked by his own vomit.
Campinas (IN 2005) In Campinas , Brazil a group of friends, drunk, went to pick up a friend….. The mother accompanied her to the car and was so worried about the drunkenness of her friends and she said to the daughter holding her hand, who was already seated in the car:
‘My Daughter, Go With God And May He Protect You.’ She responded: ‘Only If He (God) Travels In The Trunk, Cause Inside Here…..It’s Already Full ‘
Hours later, news came by that they had been involved in a fatal accident, everyone had died, the car could not be recognized what type of car it had been, but surprisingly, the trunk was intact.
The police said there was no way the trunk could have remained intact. To their surprise, inside the trunk was a crate of eggs, none was broken
Christine Hewitt (Jamaican Journalist and entertainer) said the Bible (Word of God) was the worst book ever written. In June 2006 she was found burnt beyond recognition in her motor vehicle.
Many more important people have forgotten that there is no other name that was given so much authority as the name of Jesus. Many have died, but only Jesus died and rose again, and he is still alive.
‘Jesus’
October 23, 2010 at 7:46 am |
Alforo:
It is difficult to know where to start in response to your comment but here goes anyway:
1) The plural of anecdote is not data.
2) You are very selective (naturally) with your choice of anecdote;
3) There have been numerous religious believers who have come to a sticky end (presumably you would class these as martyrs).
4) The nature of God changes throughout the Bible, so exactly which version do you believe?
5) The Bible is the divinely-inspired word of God because is says so in…the Bible. Circular argument? I think so.
6) Where is the independent evidence that Jesus was anything other that a human being? There is some evidence to suggest that he existed (although a number of scholars think that this is insufficent) but none that he was divine or rose from the dead.
7) Most religious people appear credulous because they have allowed wishful-thinking to override their critical and logical faculties.
8) Oh and trying to scare non-believers with the notion of Hell is not supported by scripture, with the very dubious exception of Revelation, and comes across as the desparate act of a playground bully who is losing an argument.
October 23, 2010 at 8:16 am |
I nearly forgot. The most important objection to your thesis is the rather tenuous grasp you seem to have of cause and effect. What evidence is there that the the deaths (effects) were caused by the words they uttered? None – other than a superstitious wish on your part that it were so. In fact, of all the billions of utterences and acts carried out by the average human being during his lifetime, how is it possible to finger any of them as the sole cause of the mode of death? A moment’s thought, perhaps, before commenting?
October 28, 2010 at 8:45 pm |
Why remove the Bible? I don’t think the Lord would appreciate that at all.
October 28, 2010 at 8:45 pm |
I meant wouldn’t.
November 3, 2010 at 9:41 pm |
To replace the Bible with an atheist point of view would affirm to a person that they are just an accident. That sounds like a good way to help someone feel better…
November 25, 2010 at 6:16 am |
“To replace the Bible with an atheist point of view would affirm to a person that they are just an accident. That sounds like a good way to help someone feel better”
AGREE WITH IT
December 5, 2010 at 8:40 am |
No I will continue to go with the Bible, and I don’t apologize for my views either. In the words of that book that so many of you do not want in your hotel room, if the world hates Christians, it’s okay because the world hated Him first (John 15:18)
December 7, 2010 at 10:24 pm |
I definitly agree with Hailey! Yal need to repent because you never know when Jesus will come. He might be coming tonight he might be coming tommorow yal dont know that! He dont even know that! So R-E-P-E-N-T what does that spell? REPENT so do it today!
January 19, 2011 at 5:33 am |
The bible is the best book because it is God’s word and everyone should respect that!
February 7, 2011 at 1:15 am |
It’s not your decision, Jew.
April 18, 2011 at 1:12 am |
HEY,
you make me wanna vomit.
if they want to help bring people to christ, who are you to judge?
were trying to save souls from burning in hell, thanks.
you dont want to read it, dont.
its youre own bad choice, thanks.
peace, GOD BLESS YOU. <3
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